Straining at motes, part 3

Kobold said...

Dr Allthumbs, with a negative DM for his DEX, has an effective Skill of, what?, Medic 1?

Actually, on the table I'm testing, he'd only have a -1.  But I get your point.

But, and this is an important but, only in situations where he has to use his DEX.

As a consulting physician, he can identify Interstellar Blot by just looking the patient in the eye and sampling his urine. As a surgeon, he is a skilled butcher, and probably doesn't do much cosmetic work.

Dr Giftedpratt, on the otherhand, both knows his stuff, and can perform delicate keyhole surgery on eyeballs, and other bits you don't want a cleaver-monkey fiddling with.

March 5, 2011 1:09 AM

Good points.  So, it seems that hard cutoffs where the stat allows you to do something help the issue- if I recall, CT had a DEX requirement along with Medic 3 to be a surgeon, and having stat minimums for use of weapons without a minus dm.

Second, the effect of stats are more situational than skills.  Which makes sense, especially with fairly broad skill categories.  It's not hard to imagine that most of the very high level skills could have different situations where different stats are important.  In which case, does capping the plus or minus mods at +/-1 for most situations seem enough ? With -2 being a big penalty ?

I am coming to think that part of the problem is that the perceived value of a modifier is based on its observed effect on a d20  system roll.  Thus, in a d20 system a +/- 1 represents a 5% difference and seems particularly trivial. However, in a 2d6 system, a -1 on an otherwise straight roll for success (8+) reduces the likelihood of success by 14%,  from ~42% (8+) to ~28% (9+);  almost three times the effect of a d20 +1.

So we see that not only shouldn't Dr Allthumbs be considered a surgeon (using a hard requirement for DEX), he would have a non trivial penalty to his likelihood of success vs Dr Giftedpratt.  Assume Medic 3 for both, with one having a +2 (12 DEX) and the other having a -2 (2 DEX), the chances of success are  ~58% (thumbs) and ~97% (gifted).
With a +/-1 for DEX  we have 72% vs 92% success, still a 20% difference. And remember we are talking about surgery here.....so that 20% represents life and death in many cases.

Given those numbers it seems to me that input from stats of 1 or 2 is quite enough -especially if there are some tasks with a hard requirement.

One thing: thanks to input, I've decided to give myself permission to make the stat effects non-symmetric .  Stat =3 is now only a -1 mod, whereas stat=11 is still a +2 mod. Plus, I've added a 9 stat to the +1 column.  With this arrangement, one gets a bonus vs penalty proportion of 13/7 or making a "good result" almost twice as likely as a bad one.  This is entirely because I do think that players need at least some edge... ;)   and possibly by having the +2 outnumber the -2 by 3:1 , they may just complain a bit less.

Stat     Mod

0-2       -2

3-4       -1

5-8        0

9-10  +1

11+     +2

 Comments ?

Straining at motes, continued.

So, thanks for the input !

From here and some forums, it looks like the main issue is a feeling that two practitioners of the same level should differentiate by characteristics.  This is obviously one of those things that has been struggle over since the first skill based RPG showed up (RQ ? Traveller ?); and while it does make intuitive sense, the simple solutions (mods based on characteristics) rapidly become too much -and this is especially true in a 2d6 system.  Would a reframing of the issue help ?

My "ah-ha" moment was this:  why do two characters with the same skill level need to be differentiated in their results ? The short version is this:  consider the two doctors at medic-3, one with DEX 14 and one with Dex 5. One can assume that they should have different outcomes based on their Dex, but why ?  I'd suggest that the most important differentiation would be in how long and with what effort it took them to get to level -3.  The naturally gifted surgeon probably took less time to get his level 3 than Dr Allthumbs -but they both got there.  Now, if Allthumbs had only taken the time and effort that Dr Giftedpratt took, he would only be at level 2.

The more I look at this, the more it seems at least as reasonable as assuming two equally trained Doctors would differ significantly in their results -especially as their effectiveness would be part of their rating.

Logic check ?

Adventurer update, new rules for characteristics and modifiers

Yes, the initial impetus for this blog, Adventurer, the traveller pastiche of D&D is still progressing. Its been undergoing playtesting and a serious reedit and reorganization  which I'm now adding to the main ms -which will eventually be available for download.

For now,I'd appreciate  comments on once particular change I've decided on:  modifiers for characteristics.  They are very genre appropriate, but often come to dominate chargen and task resolution.  Specifically, Traveller, (and I) seem to be predicated on the concept that while your basic makeup is important, what one learns is more important.  The classic example is this: would you rather have  heart surgery by another character with average stats and Medical -1, or an unskilled character with a +4 dex modifier (assuming Dex is what should be used, substitute whatever works for you) ?   How about an average character with Medic  4 vs the high dexterity  medic 0  ? Both have the exact same chance of success, but should they ?  In other words, a high Stat modifier allows a character access to lots more skills by balancing out the unskilled penalty.

Yet, genre conventions of Swords and Sorcery are full of the characters superior makeup (mighty thews, catlike grace, pantherish speed and all that ) being of notable importance.  So, here's how I'm hoping to address it in adventurer.

Traveller (and by extension Adventurer) is based on the premise that what a character knows and learns is more important than what abilities they were born with. While it is important not to let the characteristics become more important than the skills, the genre is full of examples where a protagonists raw makeup, be it strength, endurance or intelligence, makes the difference, particularly in a contest of equals.   Accordingly, extreme scores provide a modifier to unskilled task attempt (discussed in the section on skills).

Stat     Mod

0-2       -2

3-4       -1

5-9        0

10-11  +1

12+     +2

For opposed skilled task rolls, the characteristic effects the contest by providing a +1 to the character with the highest relevant characteristic.

For simple unopposed tasks rolls, no characteristic modifier should be used. It is assumed that the characters native trait is included in the skill level.

Hows that sound ?